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[sombrefan]

Dear Spuffies,

What is the Buffy/Spike equivalent of the following scene in terms of emotional impact on the viewer.

ANGEL
What's happening, Buffy?


BUFFY
Shhhhh. . . it doesn't matter.

She pulls away to look at him. Kisses him passionately.

BUFFY
I love you.

ANGEL
I love you. . .

BUFFY
Close your eyes.

Serenely compliant, he closes them. She kisses him softly.

She steps back and thrusts the sword through his chest, directly into the chest of the demon.

There is an unearthly roar.

Angel's eyes open wide -- he looks down at himself impaled, at Buffy uncomprehendingly.

Buffy can't speak -- she tries not to cry as she takes another step back.

Angel reaches out to her -- and the vortex closes over him, sucks him into Hell. And is gone.




And I'd prefer it if there wasn't any criticism of shippers/ships in the comments. Cheers.

Comments

[angearia.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure if there is an emotional equivalent (or maybe it's early and I'm not thinking of it); rather there's a thematic and situational reversal in "Chosen".

Instead of Buffy killing Angel to save the world, Spike willingly becomes the champion who sacrifices himself. They're reversals of each other. Spike's journey, as a result of trying to make him not like Angel, ends up being the opposite of Angel in a lot of good ways. He chooses his destiny while Buffy must kill Angel for the greater good.

[simonf.livejournal.com]

I though about the Chosen scene. I tweeted the Buffy/Angel dialogue to our Whedonesque followers this morning and they were like "wah", "saddest B/A scene ever" etc and it made me wonder the Spuffy equivalent was.

[eilowyn.livejournal.com]

"Sad" isn't a word I associate with the Spuffy ship, so finding something that's the equivalent of that scene is hard. The "Chosen" scene is as everyone is saying an equivalent, but it's a happy if bittersweet.

[boot-the-grime.livejournal.com]

I think it's definitely the emotional equivalent, as well as a thematic and situational reversal.

But another thing that's similar to both is that the emotional impact is somewhat lessened when you know that the character will come back. I had seen some episodes of AtS season 1 before I watched BtVS, so I knew Angel would come back. And I knew that Spike would be in S5 of AtS when I watched "Chosen", so I figured he'd somehow come back, too. It's [warning: nerdy Star Trek reference!] the "Wrath of Khan" syndrome.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

In strength of emotion, I suppose it is equivalent. Maybe I was thinking too specifically. The "Chosen" scene is one where Buffy's brimming with pride and love, the "Becoming" scene is Buffy brimming with despair and love.

[ceciliaj.livejournal.com]

Beautifully put.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

♥

[liliaeth]

I think my main issue with the scene in Becoming is that it doesn't really touches me at all. Becoming doesn't make me care until you see Buffy's pain, as she's leaving Sunnydale on that bus. And even then it's not so much Angel's death that makes me care, but Buffy's sense of loss.

[rua1412.livejournal.com]

Totally off topic, sorry.

Since Whedonesque closed down for one day, the site doesn't up for me anymore.... or when it does, it takes it more than 3 minutes to just open up the main page. Is there anything you can do to help with it? Thank you, anyway.

[simonf.livejournal.com]

That's really odd, haven't heard of anyone else having problems. It must be hanging on something loading, does it say "waiting for XXXXX" at the bottom of the browser?

In the meantime you could try http://m.whedonesque.com/ it should be quicker loading.

[rua1412.livejournal.com]

Yes it says it.... but it keeps saying it until I give up. On another hand I don't have trouble loading Whedonesque. library instead.

[simonf.livejournal.com]

m.whedonesque is the site configured for mobile phone users. What's the full "waiting for" message at the bottom of the browser?

[rua1412.livejournal.com]

waiting for whedonesque.com...

[rua1412.livejournal.com]

Yes it says it.... but it keeps saying it until I give up. On another hand I don't have trouble loading Whedonesque. library instead.


PS I tried your link and it took a while (a lot of less than for Whedonesque) and it took me to Whedonesque mobile.

[gillo]

The site always takes twice as long to load for me as most other sites. That's why tabs are useful. I assumed it was a Firefox thing, or my old computer - but its doing the same right now on my shiny two-day-old desktop.

[menomegirl.livejournal.com]

I agree with angearia. I think the final scene between Buffy and Spike in Chosen was the emotional equivalent of the Buffy/Angel scene at the end of Becoming pt 2.

[ponygirl2000.livejournal.com]

The "every night I save you" speech from After Life is a kicker. And it gains resonance on repeat viewings since the first time we saw that scene we didn't yet know what was going on with Buffy.

[kerry-220.livejournal.com]

If there had been any real reaction from Buffy I would have thought this one too.

[pamsblau.livejournal.com]

Hmmm, very interesting question indeed. I think i have to pick Chosen too. The moment is really sad if you don't actually know that Spike comes back .

[enisy.livejournal.com]

I don't think there really is a Spuffy equivalent of that moment, because those two weren't much for big, weepy, epic drama. (I've always liked how real and understated their romance was in comparison, e.g. the backporch scene in "Fool for Love" or the kiss in "Intervention".) The closest they got to emotional excesses like that was the church scene in "Beneath You", in my eyes.

[tranquil-ity.livejournal.com]

I concur, this was the scene I thought of after reading the question.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

Chosen. "No you don't, etc." Joss knows how to make people feel devastated. :)

[gillo]

Hmm. The clasped hands in Chosen is possibly the nearest equivalent, though when she calls him "William" and then walks away from him is almost as powerful.

Spike's death has to match Angel's for emotional impact - as it happens, because I watched BBC2 I knew Angel was returning, so I was pretty much equally spoiled. However, the most powerful emotional moment of all for me is the positive bit in Touched, with his "you're the One" speech and then spending the night just holding each other in their arms, contrasted with the frantic rutting of almost everyone else.

Spuffy for me is about their growing towards each other rather than Teh Great Doomed Love - nothing could beat Bangel for that particular trope.

[slaymesoftly.livejournal.com]

Hmmm - hard to say. For similar sense of loss, it would have to be Chosen, obviously. Although, for me, the dramatic impact was probably lessened by knowing that Spike was going to be back in LA somehow several months later. :) I think, for Buffy, the emotional toll of being told she didn't love him might balance out the fact that he was willingly dying to save the world rather than at her hand. It probably makes the emotional impact on a par with Becoming. In one, there was grief and guilt that her love couldn't save him; and in the other, there was pride and grief that her love wasn't accepted and couldn't save him.

Most of the emotional pain in Spuffy scenes is much more low-key than either of these finales, and the emotional impact on the viewer is muted to an ache for the pain one or both of them is feeling. IMHO, anyway.

[hobbituk.livejournal.com]

I think the spuffy scenes are understated because it (in my opinion) is a grown up love. When you are sixteen/seventeen love is a rollercoaster - you are on top of the world or in the depths of despair, and I think Bungel symbolises that perfectly. There would by the nature of it be more angst involved.

I also think chosen is the equivalent scene in emotional intent, though, because Spike may have come back, but he didn't go back to Buffy...

[areteus.livejournal.com]

Emotionally, there are massive differences between Angel and Spike and I always think that one interesting aspect of Spike is that he is capable of love even when he is souless. He definitely loves Drusilla (albeit in a very twisted and alternative way - it is still love) and he falls for Buffy long before he gets his soul back (indeed, he undergoes the trial to restore his soul for her). Whereas Angelus never struck me as capable of that - he needs his soul to allow him to love and even his affair with Darla is not very loving and always comes across as more lust than love.

I think it is this aspect of Spike which makes him the way he is - he puts on a brash demeanour to hide his very senstive interior (he is, after all, a poet). He's the wannabe punk who tries to hard to be the hardman when really he is very vulnerable.

So, I am not sure there would be an equivilent scene really. Spike would not be so open in a situation like that. He would have his emotional shields up - even for Buffy, especially if he knew she was about to kill him. He would never show anything to make her maybe regret what he knows is a very important but unpleasant task.

[speakr2customrs.livejournal.com]

BUFFY: What you did, for me, and Dawn ... that was real.

Spike lifts his head to look at her. She turns to look at him over her shoulder.

BUFFY: I won't forget it.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

My favorite scene EVER.

[liliaeth]

The end scene of Beneath you. It's one of the only scenes on Buffy that makes me cry every single time.

[ms-scarletibis.livejournal.com]

I don't think there is one...or at least, one that lasts as long as that did. Thematically, the near conclusion of "Chosen" is the inverse of "Becoming Pt. 2," sure, but the emotional impact isn't there.

I'd have to say that the near end of "The Gift," even though it's a small moment and a bit one sided, when we see Spike grieve for Buffy once he realizes she's gone...is it. That kind of works. I mean, it's not like Angel knew that sword was coming any more than Spike didn't know that Buffy wouldn't make that battle.

No wait--if we're talking emotional impact, but not similarity of scene, then I'd go for when we the audience realize that Spike's insane in "Beneath You," when he's in the alley and not ever praised church scene. That moment (to me), seeing how broken he was, was like a stab in the chest, and Angel actually got stabbed in the chest, so...

[treadingthedark.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure there is an emotional equivalent for Buffy, because after that moment Buffy is never so emotionally vulnerable again. I really felt for her in that scene, because she was so young, so wounded, and had to make a choice that she probably never dreamed of.

Buffy after that was hardened. She was ready to make the hard choices.

Emotionally for me the equivalent was Buffy's death in The Gift. I wasn't spoiled, and cried for a long time. When Spike fell in grief it moved me beyond the telling. I remember buying the Buffy CD and when the song from the end of The Gift came on I started crying before I even realized what I was listening to. Like Pavlov's dog.

With Chosen I was spoiled, and happy to be. I really didn't need that kind of pain anymore. I was still sad at Spike's death scene but knowing he was coming back softened the blow immensely. Thank god. I would have been beyond devastated.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I'm unsure of what it is you're looking for. Do you mean sadness? Because there isn't anything comparable, honestly. I really don't think the ships compare in any way. They're very different kinds of relationships at very different times in Buffy's life. She's a different person in S2 than she is in, say, S6.

If you want moments that affected me profoundly emotionally, the "that was real" scene in "Intervention" comes to mind, as does Buffy inviting Spike into the house in "The Gift." And all of their scenes together in "Afterlife" just leave me gutted in the best way. So does the last scene of "Show Time," when Buffy comes in to save him and they just look at each other. The end of "Beneath You," the "I believe in you, Spike," scene in "Never Leave Me," and the death scene in "Chosen" are also moving.

[eta] OH AND OF COURSE the final scene in "Fool for Love." How could I forget such perfection?

[ladypeyton.livejournal.com]

I never got a huge emotional impact from Becoming, even though I was a B/A shipper at the time. The special effects of Angel being consumed by Acathla were so piss poor and silly that it tore me right out of the scene.

I did cry when she was on the bus heading out of Sunnydale, though.

Luckily, but the time Chosen rolled around the special effects, and IMO SMG's onscreen crying, improved significantly.

I have to go along with the majority that these scenes are closest in intent, albeit different emotional impacts. The Spuffy relationship was so completely different from the Bangel one that it's very hard to compare them.

[treadingthedark.livejournal.com]

My daughter, who actually liked the Bangel relationship, can't help but giggle and snort at that scene. It's Angel's "Buffy!" as he's getting sucked in that does it to her. Something about the delivery.
Buffy on the bus, with Sarah Maclaclahn (sp?) playing is what gives that scene it's impact I think. Like others, that's where I cry. Poor little Buffy.

[rleyser.livejournal.com]

I really don't think there is one. Buffy loved Angel. She never loved Spike. And Spike knew that.

[boot-the-grime.livejournal.com]

*headdesk*

[eilowyn.livejournal.com]

See icon.

[menomegirl.livejournal.com]

Excuse me for butting in, but Simon asked very politely for those sort of comments to not be made.

[rleyser.livejournal.com]

First of all, Simon is my husband and he's already said the same thing to me.

However, this has *nothing* to do with shipping. I am not a BAngel or a Spuffy or even a Ruffy (which I just made up for Buffy/Riley, no idea if it actually exists). I am just stating a fact.

Buffy did.not.love Spike. She respected him. She admired what he did in the end. But she used him to feel something when she came back from the dead. That's why she slept with him. That's why she lied to him.

[rleyser.livejournal.com]

Also, what Simon said was 'no criticism of ships'. If you think my statement was a criticism, you need to look up the meaning of the word.

[menomegirl.livejournal.com]

Apologies for any offense I may have caused. I didn't mean any.

[rleyser.livejournal.com]

I appreciate the apology. I wasn't offended, more shocked that this raises such ire even now.

Although you'd think I'd realize it thanks to Simon's other job! :O)

[boot-the-grime.livejournal.com]

So, if someone went to a Bangel board and flat-out stated: "Well, Buffy never loved Angel, it was just a teenage infatuation with a fantasy about him", that wouldn't count as a criticism of a ship?

[g-reaper.livejournal.com]

Kinda right there with ya, GG.
*smooo*

[rleyser.livejournal.com]

Love ya Grimmy!!

And praying hard for an easy trip in January!!!!

[(Anonymous)]

Late.

There are a couple of scenes between Spike and Buffy I find very poignant - the emotions they wrestle with between the two of them, which are much more complicated than what Buffy had with Angel. Chosen, of course, comes closest emotionally to when Buffy sent Angel to the Hell dimension. But these were also full of feeling:

As You Were

BUFFY: (quietly) Tell me you love me.

SPIKE: (surprised, happy) I love you. You know I do.

BUFFY: Tell me you want me.

SPIKE: I always want you. In point of fact-

BUFFY: Shut up. (pulls him down, unbuttons his shirt)
---------------------------------------------------------
BUFFY: I'm using you. I can't love you. I'm just ... being weak, and selfish...

SPIKE: Really not complaining here.

BUFFY: ...and it's killing me. I have to be strong about this. I'm sorry ... William.


End of Days (It was the best night of my life)

http://vrya.net/bdb/clip.php?clip=4141