A frequently asked question

[sombrefan]

Why has this rule been in place for so long?

'Shipping' is not allowed on Whedonesque. Any post or comment that is aggressively focused on any particular 'ship' or any particular actor and/or actively supports fan factions and feuds is subject to deletion.

Apparently this is going to be part of someone's PHd thesis so it's been in my mind of late. Well years ago the Spuffies and Bangels were fighting so much, it was derailing any thread we had about Buffy. There may have been a "oh Joss reads the site so we'll have to show our strength" vibe behind this but I've never seen anything concrete about it. However the fighting got so out of hand despite bannings (people would re-register afterwards to carrry on fighting) and warnings so we brought in a zero-tolerance policy. And things settled down. Well generally. There is the occasional coded attack and flare-up. And I do get a shipping smear tactic lobbed my way from time to time "you can't trust him - he hangs round at Cold Dead Seed, he's pro Bangel or he has Spuffies on his LJ flist". But I don't take those seriously.

Can there ever be peace between the rival factions? I don't think so, it would be great if there was mutal respect but it all seems to be about separation in the fandom over the last few years rather than inclusiveness. Good luck to anyone trying to sort it out.

Comments

[rua1412.livejournal.com]

Being neither a Bangel or a Spuffy shipper, I never saw the reasoning behind their wars. They aren't comparable for me.

Buffy was in love with Angel and Angel was in love with Buffy... Spike was in love with Buffy. Buffy wasn't.

[eilowyn.livejournal.com]

This is where the problem lies with shipping. I believe Buffy did love Spike. Her actions in season 7 show it. That's my opinion, and I'm allowed to think it. When someone says "no, she didn't love him, how can you think that?" is when we have a problem.

[rua1412.livejournal.com]

Because for me when someone almost rape you, it's impossible for that person fall in love with that person.. steem yes (in extraordinaire cases like the one portrayed in the show) but not love.
But as you said you are allowed to think it and I'm allowed to not believe it. ^_^

[norwie2010.livejournal.com]

And there you have the core of the shipping wars: Because for me...

Why people choose to concentrate on "romance" in a show that wasn't about romance in the first place, though - is beyond me.

[norwie2010.livejournal.com]

I think it is a good rule for whedonesque. Ideological fights between (less educated) participants is never pretty (and "romance" is just the chosen outlet in fandom(s) insead of dirty fights about politics).

[rua1412.livejournal.com]

Not involved at all.. I used "for me" because I don't believe in an "One truth". I believe everyone has his/her truth, that's all.
I wanted to reply at the person who made me a question, don't pushing my point of view in her/his throat. This is why I used "for me".

Plus I think people has the right to focus on romance if they want, because there was romance in the show. If the authors didn't want shipper wars, they wouldn't have Buffy or any other characters fall in love in the serial... but this isn't my war. I am not a Buffy shipper so I'll let them keep going on in this thread.

[sueworld2003.livejournal.com]

Oh come on now. *g* Although Whedons no shipper the show very much used romance and Buffy's love life to underpin many of the story-lines.

[sueworld2003.livejournal.com]

'less educated'? Err what?

[menomegirl.livejournal.com]

That right there is one of the reasons there will never be peace between the Bangel and Spuffy factions: in any conversation about the subject, someone (9 times out of ten, it's a Bangel shipper) ALWAYS brings up that godforsaken rape attempt.

[rleyser.livejournal.com]

Personally I'm a Buffy/Clem shipper. Total love there. Can't stand to be apart. She was gutted when he left Sunnydale. Truly she was.

Or maybe I'm lying.

[boot-the-grime.livejournal.com]

Why do you start your post with a disclaimer that you're neutral, when you're obviously not?

Because for me when someone almost rape you, it's impossible for that person fall in love with that person.. steem yes (in extraordinaire cases like the one portrayed in the show) but not love.

But there can be when someone terrorizes you and your friends for weeks, does his best to mentally torture and break you, tortures a person close to you, and kills one of your friends?

See, this is where the problem lies:

1) people stating their own opinions as "facts" (such as "Buffy didn't love Spike"; excuse me, but I and a lot of other people very much disagree)

2) blatant double standard regarding soulless Spike's and soulless Angel's actions towards Buffy. IMO Angel's were far worse, and Buffy forgiving Angel is far more problematic, since it involves forgiving him for killing and hurting *other* people.
Also, I'm pretty sure that law considers murder a more severe crime than attempted rape.

I'd be staying away from shipper wars if it weren't for comments like this. If you were going around telling people that Buffy had nothing but a teenage crush for Angel or that it's inconceivable than she could love him after his actions in season 2 or that people who think she can are supporters of murder and torture and genocide (i.e. trying to end humanity), you couldn't expect Bangel fans to be not start arguing with you, don't you think so?

[rua1412.livejournal.com]

Did you hear me saying Buffy loved Angel after he became Angelus? I don't think so ^_^

1) You are have your opinion, I have mine. I respect it and I hope you'll respect mine. I never said it's a fact. I said "for me"... meaning I gave an opinion not a fact.. but I could be mistake since English isn't my first language.

2) I already replied above.

[boot-the-grime.livejournal.com]

You know, bringing up AR as an argument would be completely legitimate for a lot of people... except for Bangel shippers. I understand people having issues with Buffy forgiving Spike for his soulless actions... unless they're acting as if Angel's soulless actions in season 2 are not an issue.

This is the double standard that really annoys me. It's one or the other: either they're both still fully responsible for their soulless actions and having their soul back doesn't absolve them, or it does. Take your pick.

[boot-the-grime.livejournal.com]

Did you hear me saying Buffy loved Angel after he became Angelus? I don't think so ^_^

You did say that Buffy didn't love Spike in S7, when he had a soul.

[rua1412.livejournal.com]

You lost me.
Buffy was in love with Angel before he became Angelus.
How can you compare the two relationship?
Spike hurt Buffy before to have a soul, not after it.

Do you really think, you can fall in love with someone who has the same face of the person who hurt you, even if he is different inside?
Do you think people can go over a shock like what Buffy went through a few months early so easily?

If you think so, you have a better opinion about the human gender than I have.

Now since I already underlined the fact that I don't ship Buffy with anyone, so I hope you'll understand if I won't keep this going on, because I'm not interested in it.
Thank you.

[ruthless1.livejournal.com]

ZOMG! Simon you forgot about the Spangel shippers! How could you?
*flounces away*

[shakensilence.livejournal.com]

Okay... I'm biased... but here's my OPINION on the matter... I think rua1412 has something of a point about the attempted rape and this is why:

That happened directly to Buffy whereas nothing Angelus did was directly done to Buffy so she had an easier time forgiving Angel his crimes.

Buffy... BUFFY... with all her super-strength was made to feel like a victim for a moment... that is pretty significant I'd think.

I'm not going to argue whether or not someone really loved who in the end. I'm just going to say that someone with the opinion that Buffy didn't love Spike has a valid opinion.

And if you can't tell from my icon... I ship Spuffy out of the two couples in question.

[shakensilence.livejournal.com]

Love your icon!!!! I miss Due South so much!!!!!

[boot-the-grime.livejournal.com]

That happened directly to Buffy whereas nothing Angelus did was directly done to Buffy so she had an easier time forgiving Angel his crimes.

Well, that's your opinion. I don't believe that Buffy has a harder time forgiving people who have hurt her directly, rather than hurting other people, especially those close to her. I believe the opposite. I don't think Buffy would ever forgive anyone if they tried to rape or kill Dawn.

I think that the reason why she might have had an easier time forgiving Angel in S3 was that she didn't fully process at the time that he was Angelus, even when she talked about the things he did she had this disconnect between Angel and Angelus. When she started to see Angelus in Angel (as with his all-too-good acting in Enemies) it bothered her.

Although, it also helped that Jenny wasn't that close to Buffy, and Giles made it alive that time. If instead of Jenny it had been Joyce's neck he snapped, I don't think she would have forgiven him.

[menomegirl.livejournal.com]

I'm just going to say that someone with the opinion that Buffy didn't love Spike has a valid opinion.

I agree with you; it can be a valid opinion.

The thing I was trying to say had nothing to do with whether Buffy loved Spike or not. I didn't express any opinion of my own about that particular subject.

My earlier comment was about the damned AR. It gets brought up and gets used as a weapon of sorts in any discussion/debate about B/A & B/S. I've seen this happen time without number. And eventually this leads to insulting & rude comments being made to Spuffy shippers; which leads to them replying in kind. It's a vicious circle that always begins when the AR is brought up.

[boot-the-grime.livejournal.com]

You lost me.
Buffy was in love with Angel before he became Angelus.
How can you compare the two relationship?

Well, that would make a crucial difference to me if I believed that, when you once fall in love with someone, you'll always be in love with them, and it doesn't matter if they, say, torment you and kill a bunch of people and torture/kill your friends. But I don't believe that.

And Buffy already had feelings for Spike, as she said herself; but she couldn't trust him enough to be a good man as long as he was soulless. That wasn't an issue when he got his soul back, and she showed plenty of times in S7 that she trusted him.

Spike hurt Buffy before to have a soul, not after it.

I'm not seeing how that makes Angel's case better? Angel lost his soul, tried his best to hurt Buffy, then was cursed back with a soul. Spike decided to be a kind of man who would never hurt Buffy again, and chose to get his soul back.

Do you really think, you can fall in love with someone who has the same face of the person who hurt you, even if he is different inside?
Do you think people can go over a shock like what Buffy went through a few months early so easily?

She didn't get over it easily, but she did forgive him, from what I saw on screen. If she hadn't, she wouldn't have been cuddling with him in bed night after night (and possibly even have had sex with him on the last night - Whedon said he was deliberately leaving it to the audience to decide). You seem to talking about what you think should have happened rather than what happened. I'm pretty sure that the statement "He's in my heart" implies love rather than "esteem".

Now since I already underlined the fact that I don't ship Buffy with anyone, so I hope you'll understand if I won't keep this going on, because I'm not interested in it.
Thank you.

Well, OK. But someone might say that, if you aren't interested in discussing something, the best way to avoid it would be to not start discussing it. ;-)

[oreadno1.livejournal.com]

Gonna put my 2 cents in here (never posted here before; not sure I ever will again)

I do not believe Buffy was in love with Spike. I believe she loved him, which is something else entirely. And Spike knew it. After all, during Chosen, when Buffy said "I love you" Spike replied, rightly, "No, you don't. But thanks for saying it." He knew she wasn't in love with him. He was aware that she did have feelings for him, but knew deep down in the soul he got for her that she wasn't in love with him and never would be.

[boot-the-grime.livejournal.com]

That's a valid interpretation, but Spike's "No, you don't" is not evidence of Buffy's feelings. I don't believe that Spike knows what Buffy feels better than Buffy knows it herself.* And "I love you" has never been something she said easily, so I can't see her lying about it. I find it even less likely that we were meant to think that Buffy's own words about her own feelings are overruled by something a man tells her.

* Or if he does, then we would have also to assume that he was right when he was telling her that she loved him while she said otherwise (Seeing Red).

That wasn't the first time one of them has answered "No, you don't" to the other one's declaration "I love you". The dialogue in Chosen is a mirror to their dialogue in Dead Things. But I don't see many people arguing that Buffy's reply "No, you don't!" meant that Spike wasn't actually in love with Buffy.

[norwie2010.livejournal.com]

Oh, that was just me hinting at how ugly political discussions become when the participants don't really know what they're talking about. A mud slinging party with the gutter of the psyche involved, so to speak.

And, well. "Shipper wars" are ideological "discussions", and a lot of participants are not very steadyfast in their logic, or rational thought process (from my experience and observation).

Which doesn't mean that all participants in "shipper wars" are rambling lunatics - but some are. *g*

[norwie2010.livejournal.com]

Yeah, i know. :D